Janet and Khalil delve into the power of language in DEI. They challenge the concept of “belonging,” arguing for “inclusillience” – the ability to navigate and thrive in diverse environments. The episode stresses the importance of precise language and measurable actions in DEI initiatives, prioritizing inclusion over a passive sense of belonging.
Key Takeaways
- Words set the stage for DEI conversations.
- The term ‘belonging’ is subjective and vague.
- Inclusion is actionable and measurable.
- Organizations must define their own DEI practices.
- Language shapes behavior and actions in the workplace.
- Inclusillience represents resilient inclusion.
- Best practices in DEI should be tailored to each organization.
- Clear definitions help in measuring progress in DEI.
- Changing terminology requires careful consideration of intent.
- Effective communication is key to successful DEI initiatives.
Full Transcript
Janet (00:14.417)
Okay, Khalil, here we are in our second episode of In This Moment. And, you know, I'm thrilled to say that the reaction to episode zero that came out there in episode one has been positive, it's been supportive, so people are watching, listening, and they're having comments, and we love it.
Khalil (00:25.91)
Woo!
Janet (00:42.937)
So I think that in this moment, we have touched a nerve and that's what we wanted to do. And since we touch in nerves, let's get at one thing that I think a lot of us are thinking about. And it might seem basic, but it's actually much more important, I think, than we think about it. And it's the language that we use in DEI.
Khalil (00:54.186)
Mm.
Khalil (01:03.969)
I'm with you. Words matter. But Jenny, I know you and I'm getting to know you better and better. You tend to like to kick things off with a bang, not so much with a vocabulary lesson. what's the intent of like, well, let's define this and pull it apart. Why?
Janet (01:24.685)
Words are the bang. I mean, at the end of the day, they set the stage, they frame the conversation, they can either inspire people, they can shut people down. And we have some personal interest in this, but let me just, let me quote some people, two of my favorite writers, and what they say about it. James Baldwin said, language alone among man's creations is a map made by man and for man.
to chart and explore himself and to understand and explain himself to himself, okay? A little convoluted. But then there's Zora Nehrsten, who kind of like the way you and I are, she came down and said, there's no use of talking unless people understand what you say. so, are important.
Khalil (02:06.665)
Yeah
Khalil (02:10.817)
All right, fair enough. And I will tell you, so a lot of times when I do presentations or talk with folks, one of the quotes that I like to bring up is a George Bernard Shaw one, which he said, the single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place. So clearly some folks out there have similar perspectives to ours or we have similar perspectives to theirs. So language matters, makes sense. You and I have both.
written, you are a prolific writer, you've been a speechwriter, you are a communicator and a TED speaker, you you and I communicate on a regular basis. So we know the value of words and communication. And we know that folks have been having a lot of their own way with DEI, terms like woke, critical race theory, where do we even start? But it sounds like you've got a particular term.
Kind of at the height of your list of ones that you want us to maybe either do away with,
Janet (03:10.041)
Yeah, yeah, let's let's start with the term belonging. Okay, that's that.
Khalil (03:15.041)
you know, people listening right now to have belonging as a part of their job title, people that said it's not di anymore is di B. So you all and you rolled your eyes to all Jana.
Janet (03:31.087)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll be, well, here's the thing. Let me just, you know, we said we're gonna be honest. Blonding is bullshit, as far as I'm concerned, as a term. It's fuzzy. It is warm and fuzzy. And it is totally, totally subjective. Okay? So that's one of those words I just did not want to see coming and I don't like it. And so, yeah, let's start with that one.
Khalil (03:56.392)
Yeah, let's start there because when you when you rolled your eyes, there were already some people that were like, wait, they turned the music up. They stopped doing dishes or vacuum, whatever they were doing. And then when you said it's bullshit, they were like, we got to sit down now. So.
Janet (04:11.609)
Yeah, and some people have that in their title, so I'm not picking on people individually, I'm picking on the term, okay? There we go.
Khalil (04:17.15)
to put that out there, because I'm not fielding all of the emails and the online vitriol.
Janet (04:24.241)
Yeah
Khalil (04:24.384)
So tell us, mean, obviously, know, Janet, part of the reason that I love doing these with you is that these are topics that you have thought about incredibly deeply, not just right now when others are thinking about them. So we're talking in this moment, but you are contextualizing so much of this. So why do you have that reaction to belonging? And why should all of us maybe have that reaction to belong?
Janet (04:49.819)
Because belonging is vague, it's fuzzy. And think about it this way. Belonging, we talk about belonging in the corporate space. We usually talk about it in one of two ways. We either talk about creating a sense of belonging, giving people a sense of belonging, or we talk about creating a space of belonging. But here's the thing, we can do neither of those things. If you talk about somebody having a sense of belonging, first of all, who defines whether...
an individual belongs. And let's face it, because inequity exists, it's a real thing. What makes one person belong, feel like they belong, is not gonna be the same thing with somebody else. If I'm a black woman, there are spaces I am never gonna feel like I belong in. I don't care what you do, don't care how many programs you put in place, because I don't feel like I belong in my country. So if I don't feel like I belong in my country, how am gonna feel like I belong in a meeting or in an organization?
And the other thing about the sense of belonging is you say, we build these organizations, we build these cultures, we build these things, everybody can have a sense of belonging. And if that person doesn't, where's the problem? You put the onus of belonging on the person, the onus of inclusion on the person who feels excluded. So that's the sense of belonging. And then you say, some people say we wanna create a space of belonging. Okay, who determines what that space is?
to whom does that space belong? what a culture is that maybe has all the elements of belonging for one person may not be that for somebody else. And it also, if you say you're creating a space of belonging, you've basically said there is some unilateral monolithic space that people belong to. That spits in the face of diversity.
Khalil (06:41.672)
Hmm.
Janet (06:41.925)
So when we start talking about belonging, we are talking about creating something that we can't create. And I am more inclined to say, and I've said this before, the actionable part of DEI, and we're gonna get on that too, the actionable part is inclusion. You cannot create belonging, but if you create inclusion, if you are inclusive, then you create the opportunity for somebody to belong.
And I'd rather us talk about inclusion. And we joked around in episode zero that we would come up with some words and people have asked me, when am gonna hear this word? So I'm gonna say it. I came up with my own word and I'm quite.
Khalil (07:14.815)
Hmm.
Khalil (07:24.063)
Is this the world release? Are you dropping a new word right
Janet (07:29.173)
I'm dropping it and I might just have to leave it here because I've gotten some pushback that a lot of people don't like my word. the word, the word and I actually spent the money to have this word trademarked now so I'm gonna use this damn word somewhere I don't know where but the word that came up was inclusillians. think inclusillians I think it's a nice word I think it has a nice ring to it. Granted when you try to spell it it makes your brain bleed but
Khalil (07:48.219)
inclusiliates.
Janet (07:57.591)
Inclusillience is my new word. And what I believe we're looking for is resilient inclusion, inclusive resilience. mean, whatever, inclusillience works, but it's really about having inclusion that is resilient and that can survive sort of the attacks that it's under right now. That we can do, that we can build. That's the culture that we want, a culture of resilient inclusion because
Khalil (08:24.85)
Mm-hmm.
Janet (08:25.551)
That is something that's actionable that we can build on and that we can use when these attacks happen. You can have it there. The diversity is then leveraged. The equity is on its way to being built. But it starts with inclusion, not belonging. Belonging is a feeling. And how do you measure belonging? You could have one of those little pulse surveys.
but you catch me on a bad day and I don't feel like I belong. You catch me on a different team. I can feel belonging in one team and not in another. So how do you create a culture of belonging? But inclusion is something you can define and do. So that's why I'm not down with the word belonging at all.
Khalil (09:08.706)
Yeah, so listen, I'm conflicted in a handful of ways and I totally, and I get it, and I think your point, and you've raised this before as well.
is that you need to be able to define what you mean. You need to be able to measure things. You need to be able to anchor it because we talked about this in episode one, right? If it's a part of your business strategy, if it is a part of your outcomes, then it's not soft. There is no organization out there that's not quite sure how much they sold last quarter, right? There's no organization that's out there that isn't quite sure how many employees they have.
And so need to be able to measure it. And again, not everything can be measured. And that may be where belonging is kind of off to the side. It's an output. It's a sentiment, but inclusive habits, behaviors, things that you can see, things that you can hear, things that you can replicate may absolutely be the right way forward. And I have also, not for the exact same reasons, I didn't trademark a word.
inclusion is a thing that I have felt like is the right place to start and is so all encompassing in a lot of ways because it does bring in, you know, belonging. And I think that in some instances, and maybe this is just me, by breaking all of these things out, we've made them overly complex. We've made them more challenging for folks to really get their arms wrapped around. And so I hear you, I'm totally on board with the idea that belonging
is really kind of nested in, it's an output of inclusion. And I've often advocated for leading with inclusion because I think that, know, I've said before, diversity without inclusion to me has always been a revolving door of talent. I've seen lots of organizations that have gone out and found really great people and brought them into the company, but they didn't have inclusive habits. They weren't doing the work that you're describing. And those people took their talents and moved on to a place where they would be appreciated.
Janet (10:49.841)
Mm-hmm.
Khalil (11:04.509)
And I've always felt like it's almost like the soil in a garden, right? You gotta get that right before you keep planting, you know, new flowers, or the flowers are gonna die.
Janet (11:05.531)
We know.
Janet (11:11.311)
Exactly.
And let's face it, if you have diversity and you don't have inclusion, you might have some chaos because at the end of the day, different people have to learn to work together and you can't make that happen without inclusion. So when we talk about terms and we talk about things that saying what you mean, inclusion is a big one. And we said this in early episode, it's also the one thing that everybody can do. I don't care who you are in the organization.
Khalil (11:18.633)
yeah.
Janet (11:41.497)
you can choose to have inclusive behaviors. And I don't care what people think, I care what they do. And if their minds change, fine, but I want your behavior to change and that's inclusion, that's behavior.
Khalil (11:47.664)
Yes. Yep. Yep.
Khalil (11:54.254)
Yeah, I love you said that is one of the first articles I wrote when I got a Forbes blog a while ago. Don't change beliefs, change behaviors. And ideally, if you can change both, be it. But the ability to say, especially in a workplace, I am not trying to tell you what to think. But in a workplace, I do dictate what is appropriate in this workspace.
And so you may not think that this is the right path forward, but this is the way we engage with one another. This is the way we operate. This is our expectation. And I think your point, and you've brought this up before, and I know we'll continue to talk about it, is to really clarify what those things look and sound like and what they mean. So I feel like you've been so passionate about the idea that you have to get at the root of what all of this means or else it just is vapor.
Janet (12:47.171)
It is. And inclusion is an interesting thing. You made the point, you said earlier, you know, some of these things are hard to measure. I've had more people say to me, well, you can't measure inclusion. like, yes, you can. But it starts with you have to define what it is. And inclusion is not some amorphous general term that's kind of, it's not fuzzy, but it also differs by organization. used to have, I have a, I call my continuum. I call it my Brandy Melville to Ben and Jerry's continuum.
on inclusion. And yes, I can call out Brandy Melville because Netflix did a whole special about them. And so we all know that they're non-inclusive companies. I can talk about them. And we all.
Khalil (13:23.972)
Well, and tell us who Brandy Melville is, because we've got listeners from all over the world, so they may not know. So give a little bit of back.
Janet (13:28.655)
yes, yes. Brandy Melville is a clothing company and they are very particular about who they care about. All their models are very young, very skinny, very white women. And their model used to be one size fits all. Well, no, that's not true. And their one size was like a zero or a size one or two. They didn't get any bigger than that. And that's because that's who their audience was.
And they're very clear, we are not inclusive. And then when the Netflix special came out, it showed that yes, those values were reflected in the company. Women of color only worked in back rooms. They were never on the floor. They had a very particular style and the guy who founded it would come and look around and go, she's not randomly, get rid of her. mean, it's a mess. And they're still in business.
Khalil (14:11.556)
Mm.
Khalil (14:24.602)
Hmm.
Janet (14:26.257)
But like I said, I can talk about them because there's a whole Netflix special that talks about them. So I'm just gonna continue that. But the thing about them, the way I look at them though is inclusion there is very specific. You need to look a certain way, you need to be a certain size, you need to have a certain just air about you. That's what inclusion means and you're included. Go on the other end that continued to someplace like Ben and Jerry's.
Khalil (14:39.405)
Hmm Hmm
Janet (14:53.371)
where they are the social justice warriors. are out there blowing stuff up all the time. They, well, maybe not so much as they've been bought, but at least from their origins. But they have a whole different concept of what inclusion means. So saying you have a sense of belonging, if we're gonna use that term, or saying you feel included, or saying what inclusive behaviors are is very different depending on what your organization is. You have to define it. And I would argue,
Khalil (15:08.73)
For sure.
Janet (15:21.935)
that the most objective way to define it, and you want objectivity because then you have measurability, the most objective way to define it is to go back to what you're in business to do anyway, which is affect the bottom line. And so you start at the bottom line and you say, we have decided that diversity is a business asset that improves our bottom line and gives us better outcomes. What are the behaviors? What are the inclusive behaviors that are necessary for us to leverage
that diversity. That's really clear. You can say it, you can figure it out, you sort of reverse engineer what those behaviors are, you tell everybody, and then you make people accountable and you measure whether or not they do it. So yes, you absolutely can measure inclusion. You can't measure belonging so much, but you can measure inclusion if you define it.
Khalil (16:08.04)
Yeah. Well, and your point about objectivity is a brilliant one because ultimately there's so much subjectivity built into a lot of these things and subjectivity is the kind of breeding ground for bias.
Right? We know that to your point, you've raised this before. A lot of the people listening here are ones that you're aware of, you know, when it's well, I think you're doing this, but somebody else may view it differently. The clearer we can get around the behaviors that we expect to see. And it's one of the things I talk about in the end of the book, the performance culture. Like, how do you get to a degree of objectivity? And it's on a spectrum, right? We're not talking about a 15 page document for every single behavior. And this is exactly
what it looks like and sounds like and all of that. But you start to know it when you're getting closer to some degree of objectivity. And I think to your point, working backwards from what is it that we're here to accomplish. And that's why inclusion will look slightly different or in some instances, very different depending on the organization. But
too many companies don't do that work or don't have the skill to do it or the desire to do it. And so they kind of take DI wholesale and say, hey, they're doing that over here. We wanna do that over here as well. Like we just wanna kind of lift and shift and drop and then we're gonna lean in. And I know you have an allergic reaction to companies just like copying what other companies are doing.
Janet (17:31.365)
Yeah, because it won't work. I mean, it might work, maybe, maybe not, probably not. Because the thing is, you when we talk about best practice in DEI, I think that's sort of an interesting term. What is best practice? Best practice is what is the best practice for your organization. There are some elements in the DEI space that are kind of like, you know, puzzle pieces that we put like ERGs. That's an element.
know, equity audits, that's an element. There are all these things, but how those puzzle pieces fit together depend on your organization. Because although I don't know many organizations, no, I can think of some, not every organization needs ERGs. And some organizations need affinity groups, some organizations need ERGs, some organizations need BRGs. So there is no best practice for DEI in the grand scheme of things. There is the practice that works best for your organization.
Khalil (18:13.026)
Mm.
Janet (18:28.813)
And I want to go back to something you said about the spectrum on inclusion. I think that's real. And when you're talking about defining it, what came to mind, what came up for me when you said that was, know how a level works when you put it on something, you get the straight line, and you want that little bubble to sit in the middle? To me, that's kind of how you define inclusion too. You ask questions for as long as you can to get to the best and
Khalil (18:28.854)
Yeah.
Khalil (18:46.178)
Yep.
Janet (18:57.009)
the simplest, the least common denominator of what the behavior needs to be. You probably won't get down to the granularity of saying, don't say these words here, whatever, but you probably have, you don't want to get there, right? But you can say things like, when we're in meetings, this is what inclusion means. When we build policies, when we do these things, this is what inclusion looks like here. And that's going to be different because it's different depending on the organization.
Khalil (19:07.544)
Please don't.
Yeah.
Khalil (19:27.416)
Yeah, agreed. And just a note for a future episode. I know you talked about affinity groups and employee resource groups, IE ERGs, and then business resource groups, BRGs. So we're going to talk about those as well and dedicate a whole episode to kind of going into those. So for folks that were like, wait a second, what's that all about? Just kind of pause that there, continue with this conversation. Then we're going to come back to that as well. And if it's a part of our limited series. know, Jenna, I want to pivot to something else because you
Even as we're talking about belonging, you're like, listen, I'm not a fan. But you have never weaponized it. And I feel like some of what you and I have talked about and some of what we're seeing and some of what we hear listeners coming to us and asking about is, well, is it okay to not use DEI? Because I'm hearing organizations that were external people that say, well, DEI is bad. You shouldn't use it. And there are some companies that have said, we're going to keep calling it that we don't care.
There are some companies that have said we're going to do the work, but we'll call it something else. As we spoke about in our last episode, there's some companies that have said we're just going to get out of it all together. Now that we're talking about the language of it, we're really anchoring on the first two, right? The ones that said we're going to keep calling it DEI and keep doing whatever work we were doing, whether it's working or not. And then the companies that said, listen, maybe we'll change it up. Maybe we'll call it people practices. Maybe we'll call it
representation, maybe we'll call it employee experience or whatever the case may be. And so I see, I see the classic Janet I roll. So talk to me about that because I see pros and cons to organizations saying, Hey, listen, this is, this has got a gravitational pull to it.
Janet (20:58.107)
I mean, you my ass again, didn't you?
Khalil (21:12.978)
if we continue to fight that fight, then it pulls us away from doing this other thing. And so I know some very well-meaning companies that have said, hey, listen, internally, we know what we're trying to get done. And so, you know, everyone else can call it this, we're gonna call it this. And to your point about being intentional, they've said, actually DEI doesn't quite capture it. Now, again, some of those companies that I know were doing that.
three, four or five years ago when they said the work is important, but we want to call it something else because we have done our due diligence to really understand what this means for us and DEI doesn't quite capture it. So we want to reorient it, change it, call it something else, whatever. But for the companies right now that are saying the time may be right to do this a little differently from your perspective, is that a no go? Is that the same as pulling back or is that like a
Listen, you gotta do what you gotta do to keep the work moving forward with as few distractions as possible.
Janet (22:12.111)
The term, know, terms evolve just like the work evolves constantly. And I've been using DEI, we've used it here, but I did a post, maybe probably, was definitely last year where I said, I'm not gonna say DEI anymore. And of course I'm doing it because it is a shorthand. And in this moment and in this group, I think it's safe to do that. But outside in the bigger world, I'm trying to be very, I try to be intentional about not saying that. Because the reason I said that,
wrote that post, I'm not going say DEI anymore, was because our favorite tech mogul, Elon Musk, came out and said, DEI must die. And then we had people saying things like they use DEI, stands for didn't earn it. And then we had somebody come in and say, no, I'm not going to say DEI, I'm going say MEI, merit, excellence and intelligence. You know, the myth of meritocracy. So the reason I said I need to stop saying it is because let's just take what Elon Musk said when he said, you know, DEI must die.
Khalil (23:02.102)
Hmm.
Janet (23:11.107)
If he'd been forced to say diversity must die, equity must die, inclusion must die, that would have sounded completely different. That'd have been a whole different conversation. So some of it is being precise about the language. DEI is a shorthand, it is, but there is no shorthand for this work. And so I think that precision is important.
Khalil (23:14.422)
Hmm.
Khalil (23:20.47)
Hmm.
Khalil (23:27.189)
Hmm.
Janet (23:36.695)
in that vein, if you say you're not going to say it anymore, we're going to do the work, but we're not going to say it. My question is, who are you trying not to say it to? Who are you answering to by saying we're not going to say it anymore? Is it the general public? Okay, then so you are like, then you become like some of these companies where this Robbie Starbuck guy who came out and said, I'm going to say bad things about you on social media if you have DEI programs. we won't say DEI anymore. Why? You know, why do
Khalil (23:43.906)
Hmm.
Janet (24:06.127)
Why is that kind of pressure pushing you? Because even the organizations that did that, I would argue that what they were doing was they were choosing whose trauma they were going to pay attention to. So, cause what, when you say you're not going to say DEI, which like I is a shorthand, but it's a well understood shorthand until people start weaponizing and bastardizing it. It's well understood inside most companies. It's kind of a general understanding of it. What about the people who benefit from it?
Khalil (24:08.31)
Okay.
Janet (24:35.995)
When you change those terms, what do they think you're saying? Now, to your point, if you say to me, well, we decided years ago we weren't gonna do this, or we really think this doesn't say what we're doing anymore, that's different, because that means you've done the work to say there is another term. And then you know what? You can defend that term. You can help people understand it. You can explain what it is. But I would go back to, in this space, what terms are there?
Khalil (24:39.684)
Yep.
Khalil (24:55.692)
Yep.
Janet (25:06.597)
that mean diversity, equity, and inclusion better than the terms diversity, equity, and inclusion. I mean, I am a word nut. I love word. I love language. I want to hear them. And as long as when they're defined within your organization, they are clearly defined, that this is what we mean, then I think it's fine. But what happens is that's not usually what we do. We usually go flying sort of the term of the moment.
Khalil (25:14.143)
Yeah.
Khalil (25:33.13)
Now.
Janet (25:36.069)
belonging. We find that, you know, or we find people, people processes, we find all those kinds of terms. We don't make those terms up, terms up with our organizations. We find them, we go to that best practice, what are they talking about now? And that can be confusing with the work, because the work, language determines actions. Language is important. What you say is what you do. So if you're not saying diversity, what are you doing?
Khalil (25:51.445)
Mm.
Khalil (26:05.045)
Yeah, and I think this is a great place for our listeners to kind of get in and tell us what are some of the terms that you're using? What are the things that are out there? Because I'll tell you, I've heard folks say things like representation. Now again, roll.
Janet (26:05.733)
If you're not saying inclusion, what are you doing? If you're not saying equity, what are you doing? And if the terms are clear and everybody understands that that's what you're doing, then yeah, but I just haven't seen it work in too many places.
Khalil (26:32.178)
Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, depending on the organization. But some folks have said, listen, we want to make sure that whatever diversity we have is representative of the places that we are, the populations that we're serving, the people that are here. We know that, you know, our senior leadership team is only 10 people, so it's never going to represent everyone. But we want to bring people in and bring people up and bring people together. But again, there's a level of intentionality to that. And part of what can be difficult is from the
looking in to figure out how much of that is a smoke screen and how much of that is actual intention and deliberate action. And so to your point, when we're clear about what we're saying, when we've put the work in, when we've defined it across our organization, and you see that the difference between, you know, we'll talk just really quickly about like, you know, purpose or values, because I want to get to your depth model as well, because I think the people will really appreciate kind of hearing how this fits in.
But there are companies that have articulated values, they've put them on the wall, and then no one ever pays attention to them again. And then there are companies that have articulated values and those values drive decision making and action and rewards and penalties throughout the organization such that they are actually woven into the systems and the fabric and the culture of the company. And those are two very different.
And when you walk in, you might not know the difference because you see the values up on the wall. And until you start talking to people and engaging and doing some of that introspection or the inspection, you don't know what's going on there. And I think that sometimes can be very challenging is you have these companies that are saying, but no, no, no, we're really doing the work, but people outside don't see it. And there's some element of having to say, we're not for everybody. We are for our employees. And when we do right by our employees,
They will tell the world, they will bring more people, they will see what's going on. And you mentioned that last
Janet (28:25.262)
Exactly.
Because if you're not doing it, they'll tell you that too. If you have the values on the wall and you're not living them, they will tell you that too. They will get out there, they will leave and they will tell the world. yeah, employees will tell you.
Khalil (28:31.228)
Absolutely.
Khalil (28:42.643)
Yeah, and you just need to be willing to listen, right? Because some folks go, oh, everybody's leaving because they're quiet quitting or it's the great resignation. It's like, not everybody had that problem. There were a lot of organizations. People are like, I love this culture. This is a great place to be. And I feel like I'm being respected and taken care of. And there's a bunch of research and we've talked about it before that shows that a lack of attention around things like diversity, equity and inclusion.
Janet (28:52.536)
No.
Khalil (29:09.235)
can outweigh compensation in terms of the degree to which people see it as a necessity for moving on, right? That they look around and they see their peers and partners not being respected and valued and decide it's only a matter of time before that potentially happens to me.
Janet (29:26.097)
And in the episode right before this, we talked about that. We said, when do you leave? Or when do you walk away from a company? For some people, it's when the values that I believe in aren't aligned with the values of the company. And it doesn't matter if the values of the company on the wall are the exact same words. If they're not living those values, there's a misalignment. And you may decide, I don't want to be in this place anymore.
And you don't want to lose the people. If you are an organization, if you truly believe in these values, even if you aren't living them, you want people who believe in them too. So you don't want to lose the people who leave because they see a disconnect. And people will leave, you know, they will. I've walked away from igneous for that reason. And like I said, like I said, the other one too, if you're in this podcast, you probably care about this stuff a little bit.
Khalil (30:12.42)
Absolutely.
Janet (30:21.007)
So, so you see your company not doing it, you're going to notice you will notice and you it may be enough to make people leave.
Khalil (30:29.5)
So Janet, tell us and me as well, because you've talked with me about the depth model, but we haven't gone deep into it, no pun intended. But what is the depth model? How is it applicable to this conversation around the language we use, the terms we use, how we decide, what we call a thing?
Janet (30:48.187)
Well, the depth model is, it comes from a book that I co-authored with Kim Clark and the name of the book is A Conscious Communicator, The Fine Art of Not Saying Stupid Shit. And we, you know, yeah, we can about this.
Khalil (30:57.518)
Yeah.
Mike, a copy? Yeah, Clio, stop saying stupid shit. Here's a copy. Here's two or three.
Janet (31:05.689)
There you go. Exactly. But the model is a way of very objectively looking at how you talk about issues in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space and social justice space. And the model, it's an acronym, and it stands for the things that you want to be when you have these kind of conversations. You want to be deliberate, you want to be educated, you want to be purposeful, you want to be tailored, and you want to be habitual. And I'm not going to go into all of those, but
Khalil (31:18.93)
Mm. Mm.
Janet (31:35.557)
The one that we were leaning in here was the P for purposeful. And purposeful means that if you are, in the book we talk about, if you're stepping out into issues of social justice or if you're having diversity, and inclusion conversations, purposeful means that you are saying things that are aligned with your company's mission and values. The mission is what you're trying to do. The vision is where you're trying to be.
It's the same thing about building diversity, equity, and inclusion work and having these conversations. What are your values, number one? And then number two is what you're doing, the programs you're putting in place, are they there? I was at a, I spoke at SHRM at one of their conferences last year in Denver. And we were talking to one of our clients there. And one of things he said was, said, you know, we're having to...
Khalil (32:08.704)
and
Janet (32:34.339)
our job as the EI professionals is to try to make sure that our companies don't walk away from this. And we need to defend this work and we need to help our leaders understand why it's important. And I need to anchor on something. so, you you anchor on your values because if you want to make a leader listen, and if they say the Robbie Starbucks of the world is scaring them, they're afraid of the legal ramifications, whatever the reason is, well, maybe we shouldn't do this. A very simple question is, and how does not
Khalil (32:48.489)
Hmm.
Janet (33:04.209)
having diversity, equity, and inclusion, how does that help us live up to our values? Can we live up to our values if we don't pay attention to these things? If the answer is yes, well then maybe you need to rethink your values, number one. But you anchor on that because when we talk about how you make this work relevant to everyone, like you said earlier, I don't want to change your beliefs.
Khalil (33:08.977)
Yeah.
Janet (33:33.617)
I would love to change your beliefs, I'm not gonna try to. That's not what I'm here to do. But I will change your behavior. And if we as an organization agree, if you get in the paycheck every week, every two weeks from us, whether you like these values or not, you've committed to living these values. And we believe that diversity, equity, and inclusion are part of that. So either stay or go. You what do you wanna do? But anchoring it in your values, and that's about your purpose, being purposeful in what you do.
Khalil (33:40.122)
Yes.
Khalil (33:56.271)
No.
Khalil (34:04.644)
So Janet, we've talked a lot about kind of the language and being really intentional. The first part, obviously you kind of course corrected on belonging and really made a case for inclusion and how we make sure that inclusion is actionable and objective and that we're being really deliberate about it. The second thing we talked about is kind of say what you mean, right? Really be intentional, reclaim the narrative around diversity, equity and inclusion and maybe even do away a little bit with.
start to really kind of challenge that conversation. whether you keep it or change it to something else, the intent has to be there. You have to kind of pause and think about what we're trying to accomplish. How can I kind of navigate the organization through that? And then this last one that you just talking about, letting your vision be the guide, kind of coming back to your values, coming back to your purpose, being really clear about.
you are as a company and how do diversity, equity and inclusion support that work? And so I love it. I think it makes a lot of sense. These are things that obviously I've resonated with over the years and I love hearing you kind of talk it through and pull it apart and for us to be able to bounce these things back and forth. Hopefully folks are taking something out of the dialogue and out of these nuggets as well. And you know, it's important to get a general sense of that shared understanding, but also be cautious about getting overly semantic.
And I think, you know, from time to time, you get the folks that are kind of amateur philosopher. Well, what do we mean by it? What do we mean by vision? What do we mean by purpose? And it's like, yes, there's value in gaining some degree of shared understanding. And then we need to continue to move on because you've mentioned it a number of times, Janet, impact. Impact is incredibly important, especially given everyone's time and energy and resources and competing priorities.
And so if this work becomes a thing that we are spending months and quarters ruminating and talking about it and defining it and clarifying, that is not the pace at which any of our businesses move. I don't care whether you are farmer or a whatever.
Janet (36:10.897)
Yeah, don't talk about it. Don't talk about it, be about it. Do the work. Define it and get going. And you may have to redefine it. mean, like I said, this is an evolutionary process. But way to go summing that all up, Khalil. Great job. You summed that all up.
Khalil (36:29.209)
from the-
Janet (36:31.316)
No, I'll go off on a tangent and a heartbeat, so thank you for pulling it all together. At the end of it all, I think the one thing I would like to sort of wrap it up with to say is that language is important because language dictates behavior. If your language is fuzzy, your behavior is going to be undefined. So define the language because then you define the behavior. And then everybody knows what they're supposed to do. You can measure it.
Khalil (36:36.025)
Well, we will.
Janet (36:59.505)
You can do it, can measure it, you can see it, and you can actually make progress. So, there it is.
Khalil (37:05.869)
Love it. Well, hopefully folks are getting a lot out of these. We want to continue to hear from you about topics and themes. We want you to add into your comments about what you're seeing, what you're experiencing, what jumped out at you, what resonated, how are you feeling about belonging and diversity and equity and inclusion and all of the things that we've discussed. Be sure to like, be sure to share, be sure to subscribe so that you know when new episodes are coming out and we will see you on the next episode. Janet, it is always a pleasure.
Janet (37:35.523)
It is a pleasure for me too. And way to go with getting all those final things in too. You just do that so well.
